The Data Hustle — Shane Gibson

>> Yeah, thanks for having me on the show. I'm mega excited. So, uh I I kind of

talk about my experience uh over decades because I've been doing data for a while. Um so I started my journey off when I was much younger uh working in financial systems ERPs before they were ERPs. Uh decided I absolutely hated it. It was uh they're just they're horrible systems. I was lucky enough to be working for a software vendor at the time that had uh data capability. So I jumped over to the the light side and uh spent my first decade working for US software companies but I was based in New Zealand um in the data space. After that uh the next decade was was running a founding and running a data analyst consulting company. So your usual five to 20 people consultants going in doing

you know what we called land and expand back then. So going in at the strategy level working on the strategy then out into you know selection of tooling and technologies implementation um then bringing the team through to do all the ETL and development and uh data warehousing stuff back then. uh and then ideally you know getting the customer over to support where we worked with them on an ongoing basis. Um and as part of that I kind of found this passion I had where we were we're looking for ways of making things repeatable. So repeatable ways of working as much as repeatable technology and and techniques. So kind of stumbled across this thing called patents. Um and that was kind of my my last decade has been

working on patents um and patent templates. um and figuring out ways of you know teaching and coaching. So I spend half my time uh in our our startup although we're seven years down now so probably can't call ourselves a startup. And what we do there is we effectively co-design and then build information products with our customers and then help them take those information products to market for other organizations that have their problem and co-sell um with them. Uh and then the other half my time is coaching data and analytics teams. So where they're in an organization and they're struggling, I go in to uh kind of help them change the way they work and hopefully have a bit more fun doing that data work. So

that's me. Uh originally from New Zealand for most of my life, relocated to uh the UK late last year, which is my new home. Ah, England. Is it Europe? Did you call it Europe? I think they opted out. I think we're coming back though. I think I lost you there for a second, but it's okay. I'm really looking forward to hearing all of the things that you have to say about coaching data teams. Maybe let's start with a spicy question that is like what is the things never like to admit is a problem but according to your professional opinion is a problem for data teams. A lot of data teams are what I call in the Jira ticket factory. Um, and you

know, it's probably not fair that that I use the word Jira because it's the ticket factory, but actually they always use Jira, right? Um, and it's this idea that that their job is to get given a request, do something with data, flick it back over the fence, and close the ticket. uh and I think fundamentally when I see teams behaving that way uh there's a foundational problem with the organization uh it's not often it's not the team's fault right it's the culture of the organization it's the way the leadership works it's a whole lot of other things but that's one of the roots cause symptoms if I see that behavior then uh for me we need to change one or

solving that, design something that might fix it. I got to go straight into building. Yeah, I've got to go write some code, munch some data to answer that ticket. Uh there's no there's very rarely acceptance criteria, you know, like how do I know I've met the the brief of solving that problem? Uh there's no feedback loop. I close the ticket, you say thank you, right? How do I know that was valuable? How do I learn anything new? Like there's just the way we use it, the way we interact, what we expect to come in, what we expect to do with it, what we expect to come out of it is all kind of bound in and an antiattern around that thing called a

ticket. And we got to realize where did the ticker come from? It came from ITIL running servers. You know, my server is down, turn it back on. Why are we using that as our primary way as data people to have a conversation with our stakeholders about adding value to the business? Uh yeah, I'm passionate about that one, right? Because it's like it's the fundamental core problem I see time and time again. Sure, data is very interactive. It's a lot less structured. Problems are often not very well defined. And I do think that people adopting different project methodologies like probably scrum is the biggest one that were designed for different domains doesn't always translate that well. So I do think that

when you're talking about j creating these artificial boundaries of like this is where the problem the limitation starts and this is where your job ends. It's clearly built for another type of job. >> So let's go let's get spicy down on the scrum one right because this is a bug bear of mine. So uh agile is not scrum but scrum can help with agility right and and let's look at what scrum does. So one of the first things scrum did was it define the patterns of scrum really really well right it's why everybody adopts it because it actually explains what the patterns are what the value of those patterns are and how to implement them. It is a pattern that's based on

time boxing. Yeah, we we say two weeks, three weeks, four weeks uh is the time box of work. That has a whole lot of benefits. It's a pattern that's based on collaboration. The idea of sprint planning, daily standups, uh demos, retros, they are collaborative ceremonies that are forcing functions. Um but the key thing is most data teams work using a flow pattern. Yeah, they're they're like a karm. They're like a factory. uh and that actually is the natural way to work um with data but they do it really badly. Um so if we took any of the lean metrics and applied you know uh how long between the request and the delivery, how many work in progress limit uh things they have at

any one time, they pretty much break every rule of the pattern of flow and lean. Um so we can apply scrum or time boxing and those patterns to a data team and it will change the way they work but it's a temporary thing. we should use it as a forcing function until we can get them operating properly and then go back to flow. Um so yeah, I'm I'm everybody bags scrum and I'm like but it has its place but it's not a solution, right? It's just a tooling um that a data team could use if if it's uh useful for them. >> Interesting. I heard that interesting thought which is any type of planning is better than no type of planning.

But that doesn't mean that the way that you're choosing doesn't have any drawbacks. >> There's a cost to every patent you apply, right? So, uh, you know, people go, well, we do a daily stand up and it's 30 minutes and there's no value in it. Well, then stop doing it, right? But if you're, you know, you got to remember that a lot of times, especially when we worked in person, the only communication and collaboration across the team was a hourly team meeting on a Thursday where the manager talked at them and the team never really spoke to each other even though they were sitting next to each other about the work they're doing. So yeah, those those patterns, they're forcing functions to change behavior or

fix a problem. And we've got to realize that. Use them while they have value, get rid of them when they don't. forcing a pattern, forcing certain behavior. Um, I've been thinking a lot about this topic and and what should be the role of a data consultant or a data consultancy or a data team in general when it comes to delivering value in an organization. And I feel like sometimes a ticket factory is also some sort of defensive mechanism. You know, you use it to sort of guard the time. there's just so many little requests coming out of the business. So, you're trying to like shape it and sort of tame this giant monster, but then a lot of the work that would position the data team

mo most effectively if we're trying to achieve that. But then what is some other side of that like how do we do discovery and figure out what it is that would actually drive meaningful change in organization. We kind of break it down to a couple of lenses, right? Uh kind of unpack it. Uh so first thing is my standard joke with data people is uh we're pedantic semantics who never define anything, right? Uh we're kind of like a builder who never finishes their own house. So you know, we go oh the business worst term ever, right? Just call them stakeholders. Uh you know, they can't define the definition of customer. How are we meant to do that? Yeah, we can't

got this week that you hadn't planned to work on, um then you're not using data to manage your own work. uh and with AI tooling now it's really simple to to capture it and get it to tell you a story of what you actually did to come back to your question around consultants uh I wrote an article years ago um and I talked about the five E which is if you're going out to become a consultant uh think about which of the E you think your business model is based on so the first E is effort yeah you're going to get paid per hour typically to do work yeah they're going to bring you in to augment the team uh fill a gap and

you're is going to be directed by the customer for the work to be done. Yeah. And and that's it, right? Your goal is do good work in those hours. Um the next one is expertise. Um so they've got a problem and they know you're the expert. You know, back when I had my consulting company, we we're one of the few SAS SAS implementation partners. So if some you know couple of us around in the in the area we were but if you wanted to implement SAS you you would come to one of the small number of people uh consulting companies right and that was our expertise you know we were experts in SAS um the next E is experience that's where actually they've got a

How's your business model? And then that in that actually changes the conversation around value. Yeah. So because if it's effort, you know, value is 40 hours doing what they want. Well, probably better than the internal team, right? That's what I'd always aim to do.

also that whoever is on the other side of the table also understands those expectations. I think in my history as being a consultant uh a handful of misunderstandings were because both sides had a different opinion of how consultancy should work and uh hearing it as a model with letters made it immediately for me. think you're selling effort and then they're expecting uh expertise or experience and a solution, then it's not going to go well for you, right? Because you're you're going to spend more than 40 hours because you're not paying for hours, right? Uh and you won't be able to build for it. So, yeah, definitely make sure your letter of intent or letter of expectation or statement of work is aligned

look at it uh from a leadership point not a management point of view right so I I personally believe that people that lead teams are really successful people that manage teams are uh and then

there's as a leader there's a bunch of things you have to do right you have to support and encourage your team to be self-sufficient self-organizing uh depending on which level you know they're allowed to do in your organization you have to unblock them yeah when they get stuck and they can't fix the problem. You need you've got the power. You are the leader to go and remove those roadblocks and let them carry on. Um you have to be what I call a umbrella. Yeah. When when all the politics and the corporate bullshit's happening, uh you have to protect the team from some of that. Not all of it, but some of it, right? Uh especially if you're making them if you're wanting

them to change the way they work. Things will break and get worse before it gets better. So they need a safety net of time to be able to kind of break and reheal. Um and and that's really important. Um you may have been a player on the field, you may be a data person or you may not, right? And that kind of changes the way you behave. Um but you should always be standing behind the team to see what they need you to do to help them and then leading the team by giving them the idea of a mission or a vision that they should be uh aiming for. You think about that, that's hard, right? Compared to being a manager that

looks at jurro tickets and say we need to do more, right? That that's easy task, right? Uh leading to take all those different stances and lenses, that is really hard. And there are, you know, I've worked with a bunch of brilliant natural leaders out there and I've worked with a bunch of micro manager people uh and it's quite obvious the difference uh to me in terms of the people and also how the team respond. >> Very interesting. Yeah, I I I can every time you said some categories, I could think of bosses of mine that fit into some of them and the opposite. Most of the complaints that I've had about bosses of mine is because of they didn't protect us enough from external

politics, not enough vision and so on. So, it's interesting how you break it down into a model. But then we we've got to if we're the team, we've got to realize that when uh our leader is leading, like they're dealing with a whole lot of crap, right? Um and they're probably in meetings nine hours a day, which is why they're not responding to your Slack message straight away. Um and we we have to back them, right? We have to be like a team. We have to say, actually, we're going to back them and support them to be successful because otherwise, you know, we're kind of setting them up to fail. And when that happens, that leader will leave. And I

What should you prepare yourself for uh once you switch to a more consultant role? If if you're working with an organization that has a team, a data analytics team already and you're helping them out. So you're not working

solve that right you're going to sol bring a solution design a solution fix that problem um that's what you focus on right is like I'm getting paid to make that problem go away if there's a data dynamics team already there. What I would always say is leave something valuable behind. Yeah. Like just if you find somebody and you can coach them or teach them some part of what you do, do it. Yeah. If you can hand back really good documentation or now it's an AI skill, right? That helps them redo that work in the future, do it, right? Like just deliver a little bit more than the solution that your expertise was meant to deliver to the team that's there. And

you'll find that everything changes. I don't know why, right? But um it you walk away happier. They're happier to have you there. They don't sees you as a threat kind of thing. Um so that's that's that. If you're going in on your own, uh you got to think about the maturity of the organization and where you're starting and where you're expected to leave them. Because often organizations and and leaders like they're not, as you said, they're not clear about what they're buying. It's like come and put the solution in. Oh, but if you could actually leave uh a whole data modeling, physical data modeling methodology in a way we can teach the rest of the people we're going to hire in next week, that would be

good, too. It's like, well, hold on. That's that's coaching as well as delivery of expertise. And if that's what our if that's what our agreement is, good, right? But if it's not, uh there's a mismatch of expectations there again. Um and that happens a lot. So, uh, yeah, I'd be really clear on what I'm being paid to deliver to fix. Um, it doesn't need to be a big contract, right? Because the other problem is you're over your your pattern. You'll go to an anti patatterent where it's lots of bullet points. And the problem with that is you have no agility. It's like, oh, I'm going to deliver you a PowerPoint deck of 20 slides. Well, okay, I've got 19 valuable ones. I'm just going to put a

crappy 10th 20th one in there because that's what the contract says. So, it's a interesting balance, right, between intent, outcome, solution, and doing the work. Um, and that that is a balance and good consultants know how to do that. >> Yeah, Shane, I I I think I'm going to regret not asking this one, so I'm going to go for it. I think lots of people listening to this are maybe more senior contributors. They're not too worried anymore about the tech part. They know what's their value, but they're looking to how they can step up and become leaders inside of their team. Sometimes that's in the form of how I get promoted. How do I show people that I'm ready to take more responsibility or how

>> Maturity of the roles, right? And so I talk about novice um which is never done never done that before. Um, a practitioner, which basically means I can do the job day in and day out and do a good job, right? I'm I'm good at it. Adept means I can do the job day in day out and when I get a gnarly problem, I can nine times out of 10 solve it. I can adapt, right? And and and fix that problem that I've never seen before. Uh expert, right, which is I am I am the man. I am the person, right, who everybody comes to uh for this thing.

And then coach. Yeah. Which is which is the top level and uh novice adept, practitioner adept and experts are about doing the work. When you come to coaching then you have to change stance because your role is no longer to do the work. It's to help other people do the work like you used to and become an expert. And so we used to have this joke right that uh you know managers got promoted to their highest level of incompetence and that was because they were technically an expert right they were the best person for doing that job and then the organization goes great you're going to lead a team we're not going to give you any training on how to

how to lead people how to manage HR how to deal with uh people who have personal crisises at home um how to deal with politics in the organization how to get budget to hire somebody how to get approval to let somebody go off on leave for a month because they want to go visit family somewhere else and we have a twoe policy. Like if you think about all the things you have to learn as a leader of a team when you move into that coaching level um most people aren't taught it. Um so so think about that right think about it it's a it's a different um a completely different job a different set of skills which comes back to the second pattern I use which

is T- skills um although you see L skills E skills and a whole lot of stuff and that is um thinking about the skills that you have that are both technology so the ability to use Snowflake DBT data bricks the skills that are kind of technology based but outside tooling so the ability to engineer write tests, documentation, do releases and then the skills that are kind of in the data space but not really what we call core data skills. So facilitation, workshop running, managing stakeholders, those kind of things. And so if you draw a picture, right, you basically draw each skill as a as a a line and then as you go down it, figure out where you sit for

Your person paying you has to see that you're doing 40 hours a week. Um so and and manage is probably not the right word as I think about it. I mean it's probably more collaborate, you know, engage with uh all those kind of fluffy words. Um but yeah, if you're not doing that, uh you're in problem. Uh the next thing is make all the work you do visible. >> Yeah. Don't like engineers love to go into a dark cave, you know, and and spend two weeks just nutting out a thing. Don't do that. It doesn't matter which year you're doing, right? You don't have to overcommunicate, but you have to communicate. Um, figure out how you're going to give an update around

success. Yeah. So, as as you're progressing and ticking off the things you know you have to deliver, whether it's hours or things, um, figure out ways that you can make it visible that you're ticking those off for you and for them. Um, and and so a lot of consultants when they start out, they treat it like a job. Yeah, they're an employee. They don't have to worry about the the second part which is, you know, all the selling and managing. Uh they don't worry about pipeline. And I'm like >> because again, what typically happens is somebody who comes from an employee to be a consultant, we end up with one big customer. >> And that's great until that one big

customer leaves. It's like now I've got no customer. Um which goes back to my one of my key things. If you're going to go out in consulting uh for your first time, you need to make sure that you have six months worth of money in your bank that you can use if hits the fan. And you will need it at some stage in the first three years. Yeah. Uh and that has to be money that covers your cost, your family cost, or whatever cost you need to do for up to six months. If you don't do that, you're really putting yourself at risk. So, bank the cash. uh it can be on your mortgage or but you have to be

Uh do you like writing content and giving it away for free? Does that feel comfortable? Because what happens with data people is

salary, you probably shouldn't go out if you don't have a network that you can identify of people that you can talk to. um that they they may not give you the work, but they'll know somebody who who needs help and they will recommend you. So that idea of a relationship. So typically you'll find that when you go out on your own, your first deals will come through some form of relationship. You know, setting up a website that says we do data Uh or you know, right data, right time, right person. uh or any of those standard, you know, uh we do data strategy and we do data platform or I'm a DBT and Snowflake expert. You need a website. It's valuable, right?

But it's not going to get your business nine times out of 10. So figure out how you're going to find the people that you can help and then how you would like to persuade them or encourage them or prove to them that you can help them. network of people you have around you is is critical for that that first few customers maybe even all of them throughout your consulting career depending on what you're exactly doing. Uh you do mention also engineers like to go into a cave and code and like not do much of that stuff. Uh, I found that a lot of people and and I've had some conversations here on this podcast before as well on this is that they

to not pay you for 90 days after you've done the work. You are a bank to them. Um it is not an income like an employee salary that turns up every fortnight. Um so be careful on that one. Right. The the way the money goound happens is not what happens when you're an employee. >> Okay. the corporation absorb that. But if it would have been me as a freelancer, I would have been a sad >> uh it's the same as when they ask you for a discount. You know, the conversation you should be having is okay, which part of the offering I'm I'm proposing don't you want me to do? That's really hard, right? Um that doesn't go well typically. So, you need

to find like you need to think about if you're going in to talk to a customer about an opportunity and when they ask you about a discount, you need to know what you're going to respond with before you have that conversation. So, otherwise, you're kind of like, h I suppose. And if you haven't been in work for 3 months, you're going to be more likely to take the discount because you want the money. Yeah. So, you need to be really clear about your value and what you're willing to compromise uh to to give that discount. Similar to how you sell a house and then people are like, "Yeah, but I'm not going to pay the price because there is like this little imperfection here and

there." Clients will also do that to consultants and it's not personal regardless of who you are or where as a person. They were going to do, "Oh yeah, but you're not certified in this or that." So, a lot of times it's going to be confrontative to tie your worth with you as a person and some clients because you're external are going to put you in weird situations. >> Consultants often feel like it's okay to be paid after they've done the work. They're kind of like plumbers, right? Plumber turns up, plumber fix my pipe, I pay the plumber. But why don't we get money out front? Why don't we say, you know, I want you to pay me a certain amount in the

beginning and then pay me as we go. Like why don't we ask for that? Because not many people do, right? But we're doing the work on day one. Like we got to pay our bills. Why should we bankroll the customer? And and again, it's it's just we we fill into these norms, right? And so, you know, again, go back to figure out what's important to you. you know, if you don't need the cash because, you know, you've got enough money in the bank and that's okay, right? But actually, if you are pretty tight, you haven't got your six months, um, then maybe getting the cash early is more important to you than the rate you get, right? Think about what actually is

trust that helps you have these difficult conversations and sort of tip the scales in your favor when you do get into these uh gnarly negotiations? you know, if you're leaving your organization, uh, I would expect them to support you if I asked them how you did. Now, the problem is you may be leaving that they may not want you to leave, right? And they're >> being dicks about it, but most people are good people. So, yeah, it depends where you live. You know, when I was in Wellington, it was a relationship town. you know, you if you ever wanted to work with somebody, you'd go and ask three people over coffee and they would know somebody who knew them or they knew them

and you get this kind of network effect. Um, in Oakland, it was very transactional and that didn't happen as much. So, the way you trusted somebody was different. So, first thing is network, trust, people trust people. The second thing is your personal brand and and we got to be really clear what I mean about that. Your personal brand is what somebody else says to somebody else about you. Yeah. So, you know, personal brand for Tony is what I say to one about Tony, right? That that is the perception of your brand and we should think about the brand we want to portray. Um, yeah. Um, so, you know, Tony, you and I are on practical data community, right? With great great

community, PDC, yell out there for anybody that's in the data space everyone practical community listening in. Yes. Um and and when I'm there, I I post as much as I try and help people, right? It's just where I go. That's just the thing. But from my point of view, that still aligns with my personal brand, right? You know, I come from New Zealand. I have a very deep vein of sarcasm. Um but I'm I'm kind of myself there. You know, probably not as professional as I am if I'm if I'm somewhere else, but I'm still within what I see as my personal brand window. Um, and that's what people should be doing, right? They should be figuring out how do they want to be perceived in

in my opinion right or my opinion so just think about it right um yeah just think about your personal brand how you want to be perceived and then make sure everything aligns and then if it makes you uncomfortable if writing posts make you uncomfortable if if being on a podcast being makes you uncomfortable don't do it because it'll come across that you don't like doing it you still need to push yourself though right? Like why can't you write a small article in the way you like to write? Yeah, that's valuable. Um but yeah, don't pretend to be who you're not. So I rambled a bit on that one, but uh yeah, that that's how I see it. >> Don't end up on the wall of shame,

more based on vibes if you are um I don't know maybe something like a lawyer where you're not allowed to flaunt about your work too much or maybe like a coach that the work is a lot more intangible. So we do have as data people more control over our personal brand and that's one thing that >> the AI world we live in now. So, um you I was watching something where uh some founder was selling a piece of software uh that allows when you're doing an interview um for you to have on the side of your screen and it's listening to the question and giving you the answer and it's also giving you screenshots of the leak code answers for anything that you

>> Personally, I mean you you mentioned you need to do something you're comfortable with and show who you really are. You know, publish a small article, go to the podcast, do all these things. I would like to say like you have you have to force yourself. If you aren't unable to do something like this, how do you expect you're going to have a good conversation with a customer, a lead, or any of these people? You're going to do a lot of written communication. You're going to do a lot of talking to them live. And and these are skills that are very very difficult to fudge even with AI. If you look at a lot of people will

tell text is AI generated right away. Why? Because it's it's incoherent in places. It's a bit uncanny. It's sort of um it it's sort of a average piece of text. It has no personality. It doesn't really show anything that you do or you think. And I I personally feel the way you counter that is by showing that your brain still works. You know, you you put out pieces that require cognition and that show it. I I think personally that is the most important way to distinguish. And I think it's quite funny that with AI it becomes actually even easier to distinguish yourself because there's so many people that have this almost gambling like addiction, pushing the claw button and pushing out all

like sculpting like painting with brushes. So for us data people that our job is so digital skills like talking talking to people in a meetup, giving a presentation training are going to become a lot more important. And if you happen to be good at any of those, then you that's an easier way to stand out because as of now as of today when we're recording this might age very poorly in a few years. still doing things like this, like a podcast, still feels human, still feels authentic. Uh, but writing an article, it's a lot harder because you're competing with the billions of people that are pushing AI stuff. So, even if your article is amazing, it's a lot harder to find. Once

Well, you you know people you're like in the network, you mingle, they kind of feel confident doing that to you. And it's the same with anything you produce. I don't think

that has changed substantively. There's more content out there in aggregate, but the way that people find you and like trust you and and and are interested in reading what you have to write and listening to what you have to say and uh wanting to buy what you want to buy. It it's still a a human endeavor and you need to like connect with people to make it work. And I I don't think it's going to go away. It's just it's got to stay. And >> yeah, I don't know. >> I think yeah, to both your points, I think we're going to end up with more tribal behavior in our society and in the data space. back to that network uh

and this idea of tribes and uh tribes being smaller and and the general mass and then networks and relationships. Um the other thing about writing that's really interesting is uh so I was mentoring a masters of data science student in New Zealand last year and I had him do a portfolio um and then I had him write about it and >> it wasn't because yeah he did a website did a brilliant job of his website actually and he had somewhere he could point to but the key point to him was by writing down your experience doing that portfolio you're telling yourself a story. Yeah. you're you're crafting the words of and the steps of what you did. And so what he found when he went into

the interviews and they asked him, you know, blah blah blah blah. He had already written that story, right? Uh like he didn't read it out, but he'd already crafted it that I did this and then I did this and then I got stuck on this and he had that story arc and you know he came across in the interviews really really well because he could articulate something with clarity um because he'd already written about it. So again, if you don't like writing for for other people, write for yourself. >> Um will force you to think, right? It will force you to go, you know what, I can't actually explain that bit in the middle. I thought I knew it really well,

second part of self flagagillation is to give it somebody and then watch them not understand what the hell you were trying to get across. Some compliments there like a lot of the topics that we have been talking about. I've kind of mentioned some of them but I'm impressed by the way that you kind of break things down into models. For example, the which of the you are I think there is a paragraph in there that is written kind of like that but nowhere near as elegant as you're doing. So the self-reflect there it's probably three maybe four decades now and and so I've kind of thought about like where's my journey gone and and why do I do what I do now and I started

because I used to read a lot and there was this theory that I read about where when you're young it's all about speed and adaption right you know when the when the lion comes to eat you you ran faster than anybody else yeah Um and then you know as you got a bit older it came around collaboration. You were good at working with you know your local village and the tribe and and as a group you you know you were really successful. But when you get to a slightly older uh you're not fast anymore. Yeah. And you're kind of not in the group as much as everybody else. So you have to become really good at pattern recognition. You know like I can see that there was a

Um anything you want to bring up here? >> Yeah. >> Um the easiest way to find me is just to search agility. Um and something will pop up that will take you to somewhere I am or somewhere I've been. Uh I still spend a bit of time on LinkedIn uh for for my sins. I don't spend time on X. Uh

there's a couple websites out there where I share what I do. So just yeah, search for for that. Um yeah, get get hold of me, you know, if you want to talk. I'm always happy to help anybody. Um have a conversation. Um do whatever I can to kind of make the data space more fun. Um happy to share. I always say sharing is caring, right? So uh you know, let's do do more of it. >> It's caring indeed. Thank you again for coming on the podcast. I had a great conversation. uh thank you for all the wisdoms you've shared with us. I hope me and Juan can also get to this point that we have four decades of experience and

then reflect back and share back to the community and uh yeah uh see you around